The discussion began on facebook, in regards to the above article, as follows:
Chris Fulford: There are a lot of things I disagree on with McCain, but his distinctive stance on Russia just earned him bonus points in my book.
Ryan Whelan: Bonus points for a disagreement or for agreement?
Demic Tipitino: One, McCain does not have the power to do that. It is the Host nations responsibility. But I do think that by taking a more hard lined stance and putting pressure on Russia we might get a better response.
With respect to Obama. He is such a fan of diplomacy, and honestly I agree with him on this, but I would really appreciate it if he knew how to be a diplomat. Obviously Russia is not moving from the G8, but ya know I want my president not to lay down when Russia does the crap they have been doing.
Chris Fulford: Bonus points for agreeing with his opinion of Russia. Since 2001, Putin has taken advantage of Bush's "friendship," and the latter's acknowledgment of his friend's "good soul" is a load of crap to me. The US has needed to take a hard stance on Russia from the beginning.
Oh, I agree with you, Demic, that the US has no leverage to get Russia out of the G8, but by singling Russia out, McCain is performing a first for US leaders, and I admire him for that.
Demic Tipitino: Ya that is honestly why I like him so much. It is not that he is always right, but that he is always him. You remember in 2000? in the South Carolina debate Putin had won already, and they asked Bush and McCain what they thought about him. Bush described his typical I looked into his eyes and he is a good honest man stuff.
McCain said "I look into his eyes and I see three things... K...G....B lol how right he was.
Ryan Whelan: I must say, that while I admire Mccain's impassioned stance and do not disagree with the spirit of the argument or the tough stance, I do think calling for Russia to be ousted from the G8 is the wrong way of going about achieving democratic progress within Russia. I agree with both of you that we do not have leverage to force the Russians our of the G8, but even if we did it would be a step that is completely counterproductive to our national interest. While Russia has introduced a few too many authoritarian measures and drastically re-centralized control, we cannot underestimate the propensity of the Russian mind to overreact.
I do not know how much I would say that Putin has taken advantage of President Bush's "friendship," because I think most of what has been done would have happened anyway, because it needed to happen, at least from the Russian perspective it did. The reigning in of the oligarchs was a major accomplishment, and though the subsequent passage of a law making all regional heads subject to Kremlin appointment did squelch regional opposition at least in the short run, it also leaves the door open for democratic reforms that could foster democratic opposition in the future.
There is a new President in the hot seat, and while he probably does not have the complete mandate that Putin did (because he does still have to answer to the silverback), he does have the potential to have considerable influence on foreign policy. We all understand that the Russians feel as though the are being suffocated by Western influence.
Bases in Kyrgyzstan and only recently removed form Uzbekistan. Bases in Turkey, rapidly warming relations and the possibility of NATO for Georgia and Ukraine (Ukraine of course still housing a significant portion of Russia's Black Sea fleet and Georgia in the current row of Abkhazia), the loss of Kosovo and a pro EU government in Serbia, Missile defense systems being placed in Czech Republic and Poland. Indeed, simply geographically speaking it is certainly understandable that russia feels there is a noose slowly tightening around its neck. Furthermore, the renegotiation of energy contracts with western companies is not an anomaly, and has been the norm throughout Central Asia and other resource rich countries that did not have the capacity to research possible deposits on their own.
There is no doubt that the Russian way implements some more authoritarian principles than we would like. However, our immediate policy should be one of patience and gentle pressure. They are in the G8, we should push them from within the G8, and we have a little bit more of an advantage to pressure them to reform before entering into the WTO. But, we have yet to see the full extent of the action that President Medvedev will be able to take, and probably will not until after our own elections.
I do think Mccain's tough stance on Russia is a good one, especially for the election. However, I think he should propose reasonable means for pressuring them, or else he looks like he is either an idiot or a politician simply maneuvering for a vote. Furthermore he should demonstrate a bit more of an understanding of Russian history and a bit more sympathy for their situation when Putin came to power when implying his constructive supposed to take the lead in everything. We need to put a little bit of faith in our Russian brothers, while keeping up a steady, but not-to-harsh stream of advice, and give the Russians a chance to come around under their new president. If there has been no progress within a year to 18 months, then it will be time for more drastic action.
Please, get involved and share your thoughts...
Chris Fulford: Bonus points for agreeing with his opinion of Russia. Since 2001, Putin has taken advantage of Bush's "friendship," and the latter's acknowledgment of his friend's "good soul" is a load of crap to me. The US has needed to take a hard stance on Russia from the beginning.
Oh, I agree with you, Demic, that the US has no leverage to get Russia out of the G8, but by singling Russia out, McCain is performing a first for US leaders, and I admire him for that.
Demic Tipitino: Ya that is honestly why I like him so much. It is not that he is always right, but that he is always him. You remember in 2000? in the South Carolina debate Putin had won already, and they asked Bush and McCain what they thought about him. Bush described his typical I looked into his eyes and he is a good honest man stuff.
McCain said "I look into his eyes and I see three things... K...G....B lol how right he was.
Ryan Whelan: I must say, that while I admire Mccain's impassioned stance and do not disagree with the spirit of the argument or the tough stance, I do think calling for Russia to be ousted from the G8 is the wrong way of going about achieving democratic progress within Russia. I agree with both of you that we do not have leverage to force the Russians our of the G8, but even if we did it would be a step that is completely counterproductive to our national interest. While Russia has introduced a few too many authoritarian measures and drastically re-centralized control, we cannot underestimate the propensity of the Russian mind to overreact.
I do not know how much I would say that Putin has taken advantage of President Bush's "friendship," because I think most of what has been done would have happened anyway, because it needed to happen, at least from the Russian perspective it did. The reigning in of the oligarchs was a major accomplishment, and though the subsequent passage of a law making all regional heads subject to Kremlin appointment did squelch regional opposition at least in the short run, it also leaves the door open for democratic reforms that could foster democratic opposition in the future.
There is a new President in the hot seat, and while he probably does not have the complete mandate that Putin did (because he does still have to answer to the silverback), he does have the potential to have considerable influence on foreign policy. We all understand that the Russians feel as though the are being suffocated by Western influence.
Bases in Kyrgyzstan and only recently removed form Uzbekistan. Bases in Turkey, rapidly warming relations and the possibility of NATO for Georgia and Ukraine (Ukraine of course still housing a significant portion of Russia's Black Sea fleet and Georgia in the current row of Abkhazia), the loss of Kosovo and a pro EU government in Serbia, Missile defense systems being placed in Czech Republic and Poland. Indeed, simply geographically speaking it is certainly understandable that russia feels there is a noose slowly tightening around its neck. Furthermore, the renegotiation of energy contracts with western companies is not an anomaly, and has been the norm throughout Central Asia and other resource rich countries that did not have the capacity to research possible deposits on their own.
There is no doubt that the Russian way implements some more authoritarian principles than we would like. However, our immediate policy should be one of patience and gentle pressure. They are in the G8, we should push them from within the G8, and we have a little bit more of an advantage to pressure them to reform before entering into the WTO. But, we have yet to see the full extent of the action that President Medvedev will be able to take, and probably will not until after our own elections.
I do think Mccain's tough stance on Russia is a good one, especially for the election. However, I think he should propose reasonable means for pressuring them, or else he looks like he is either an idiot or a politician simply maneuvering for a vote. Furthermore he should demonstrate a bit more of an understanding of Russian history and a bit more sympathy for their situation when Putin came to power when implying his constructive supposed to take the lead in everything. We need to put a little bit of faith in our Russian brothers, while keeping up a steady, but not-to-harsh stream of advice, and give the Russians a chance to come around under their new president. If there has been no progress within a year to 18 months, then it will be time for more drastic action.
Please, get involved and share your thoughts...
